Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Kaladin finally initiated serious Windrunner training and tentatively accepted Renarin’s presence on Bridge Four. This week, Shallan tackles some serious Lightweaver training and is saved from grave error by Pattern’s… well, patterns.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 42: Mere Vapors
Point of View: Shallan
Setting: Her suite in Sebarial’s manor
Symbology: Pattern, Shalash
IN WHICH Shallan and Pattern discuss the intricacies of figurative speech, lies, truth, and illusion; Pattern spots a pattern and prevents a probable crash-and-burn for Shallan; spanreeds allow her to communicate with the Ghostbloods in Sebarial’s warcamp via an intermediary on the other side of the continent; Shallan practices deliberate Illusion drawing, and learns from Pattern that her Illusion will last as long as she holds Stormlight; a meeting is set for tonight; Shallan rifles Tyn’s belongings for clothing to outfit her illusory person, and climbs out the window.
Quote of the Week:
The lock of hair hanging down over her shoulder was black. Shallan stared at it, then rose from her seat, eager and timid at the same time. She crossed to the washroom and stepped up to the mirror there, looking at a face transformed, one with tan skin and dark eyes. The face from her drawing, given color and life.
“It works…” she whispered. This was more than changing scuffs in her dress or making herself look older, as she’d done before. This was a complete transformation. “What can we do with this?”
“Whatever we imagine,” Pattern said from the wall nearby. “Or whatever you can imagine. I am not good with what is not. But I like it. I like the… taste… of it.” He seemed very pleased with himself at that comment.
Semi-relevant personal anecdote: Some years ago, I had major jaw surgery. Needless to say, in the immediate aftermath, the lower half of my face swelled dramatically – but since I had a narrow face to start with, the result was not terribly disproportionate for a normal-sized (okay, chubby) face. It did not, however, look like my face. Under the lingering influence of anesthesia and painkillers, my first thought on seeing a mirror was, “They must have put me in someone else’s room, because the other person is there in the mirror.” It only took ten or fifteen seconds for the logic to sort itself out, but that’s the impression that springs to mind when I think of what it must have been like for Shallan to see her reflection in this scene.
Commentary: For a chapter where the most action involves walking from the couch to the washroom, there’s a lot going on up in here. First of all, I love it when Pattern starts talking like a Cryptic, with all the lies and truths and how evidently the words mean something ever so slightly different to him than to us.
“You say you are ‘on’ the stomach,” Pattern said. “But I know you do not mean this. Context allows me to infer what you truly mean. In a way, the very phrase is a lie.”
“It’s not a lie,” Shallan said, “if everyone understands and knows what it means.”
“Mm. Those are some of the best lies.”
Once again, we’re reminded that Pattern is very, very literal; figurative speech delights him even though he finds it hard to understand. (I think there should be some deeper meaning in this, but it’s lost on me at the moment.)
Fortunately for Shallan, he’s also very, very observant and the name she has given him is apt. Also fortunately for Shallan, her “instantaneous communication across half the world” is inconveniently delayed: while they’re waiting for the someone at the other end of Tyn’s spanreed to return, Pattern decodes the authentication cypher she needs to get access to Tyn’s connections. That was a close one, m’dear. However… it leaves a question hanging. Just before Pattern finds the pattern, there’s this:
One oddity stood out to Shallan. The way Tyn spoke of this group wasn’t like that of a thief and one-off employers. Tyn spoke of “getting in good” and “moving up” within the Ghostbloods.
Is the “oddity” merely that Tyn was not entirely consistent in the way she presented herself to Shallan versus her correspondent and/or the Ghostbloods? Or is this a hint about future developments?
RAFO. *sigh*
Shallan proceeds to do her very best imitation of Tyn’s attitude and manner toward the person at the other end of the spanreed, and ends up with a meeting scheduled in less than half an hour, if she can “get to Sebarial’s warcamp quickly.” If. Heh. Her disguise consists of a whole lot of strange-to-her clothing; it’s good she and Tyn were roughly of a size. One of Tyn’s white coats with a wide black belt, a buttoned shirt, boots (Kaladin’s?), and Bluth’s white hat to shade her face and disguise her fuzzy nose. Loose trousers, which feel a bit odd but at least she was used to seeing them… but I’m torn between snickers and sympathy over her reaction to that thin glove on her safehand. Poor girl. Even her Illusion blushes.
Summoning Jasnah’s lessons to support her, she finally collects all her needful bits-and-bobs and climbs out the window. Because all good adventures should start by climbing out the window.
Stormwatch: Energizer Day, evening. Thirty-seven days remaining in the countdown.
Ars Arcanum: Lightweaving! Lightweaving all over the where! This is nicely set up to parallel Kaladin’s efforts in the previous chapter, with two notable differences. Pattern seems to have a more thorough grasp of Lightweaving than Syl has of Windrunning. Best two guesses: 1) Pattern was not isolated from his kind by his bonding as Syl was; she rebelled and is the only bonded honorspren, while Pattern was clearly in communication with other Cryptics when we first saw them back in TWoK. 2) Pattern’s earlier learning time with Shallan, while interrupted for six years, has returned to him over the last few months, while Syl hasn’t had any previous experience and is still figuring things out for the first time. I’m not entirely sure that second option is as applicable to spren as it would be to humans, but it’s at least partly relevant. In any event, I guess it’s only fair that Shallan’s spren knows more than Kaladin’s, because he’s got friends to help him learn, and she’s flying solo. Or… no, it’s Kaladin that flies. Shallan… weaves alone? Doesn’t have the same ring to it, somehow.
Anyway. Like Kaladin, Shallan has done some Surgebinding before (that she remembers), but this is a new step. Always before, she was building on an existing framework, making little modifications here and there, enhancing this and disguising that. This time, she draws something different: dark eyes, dark hair, worn features, a scar. She keeps her body mostly the same, in terms of height and build, but no one could possibly see this Illusion as merely an older or more polished Shallan. Everything is different. And Pattern matter-of-factly says, “Sure, no worries. Your imagination is the limit. More coffee?” … or words to that effect.
Not that it was perfect—she forgot to finish the nose on her drawing, so now she has a fuzzy gap. (I’m not quite sure, though, why she can’t just go back to the drawing, add in the necessary line, and make it look un-fuzzy.) I’m relieved that she didn’t do a whole WoT-style “Mask of Mirrors” to change her clothing and everything, but had to go dig through Tyn’s working wardrobe to find stuff suitable to the persona she was weaving. Which is not to say that she couldn’t do a full-body-and-clothes Illusion some other time, of course, but it would be a bit much for a first effort. And that long-ago reference to Tyn’s annoying lessons in forgery now comes full circle, aiding Shallan in a way Tyn certainly didn’t intend!
Is this really the first time Shallan has made the connection between her Illusions and the Stormlight she holds? When she asks Pattern how long the Illusion will last, he tells her that it feeds on Light; she looks and realizes that she had apparently drained all the spheres in her safepouch during the meeting with the highprinces. While it does explain the changes noted by Sebarial during their carriage ride, because the Illusion faded as the spheres ran out, it makes me wonder: was she drawing Stormlight from those spheres involuntarily, or instinctively? And was she really completely unaware that she was doing so? (I guess I should go back and look, but… not now.)
You Have to Break a Lot of Rockbuds:
Suddenly ravenous, Shallan sat down on the sofa, lifting the lid off the tray to find flatbread that had been baked with sweet paste in the center, along with dipping sauces.
Did that sound like a danish to anyone besides me? Mmmm. Danish and coffee. Now I want breakfast.
Heraldic Symbolism: Shalash presides in solitary glory over this chapter, full as it is of Lightweaving. No further explanation seems necessary. The chapter title clearly comes from Jasnah’s remembered words at the end of the chapter:
Authority is not a real thing. It is mere vapors—an illusion. I can create that illusion… as can you.
Words of Radiants:
But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws.
From Words of Radiance, chapter 2, page 4
So now we’re skipping from the ending of the Knights Radiant to their beginnings. This brings back a question discussed many chapters ago: whether the initial efforts at Surgebinding were strictly limited to exactly the combinations given to the Heralds, or whether that limit was one of the “precepts and laws” imposed on them by Ishar.
I can understand the argument that, since the spren were imitating what was given the Heralds, all they did was imitate exactly that. I’d really like to know if that’s certain, though. Does anyone have a WoB on the subject which I’ve been unable to find? Or is it merely a consensus among a group of fans who believe that it ought to be so? Because without a WoB, it seems far more probable to me that the spren experimented with granting humans access to whatever Surges they could influence – single Surges, various melds, one person with control over three, or four, or five Surges… That would also be a strong reason for Ishar to step in and say, “No. These ten combinations, and no others, always accompanied by Ideals that constrain the worst impulses of human nature.” The text says he “caused organization to be thrust upon them” – which could be as light as requiring each of the ten extant “families” of spren to abide by certain Ideals, or it could be as heavy as defining and imposing the system of ten Orders (with Ideals) and forbidding all others.
Please, if anyone has a clarifying WoB, speak now! I will be forever in your debt.
With that, we’ll wrap this up until next week, when we meet… The Ghostbloods.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. With Sasquan 2015 only ten weeks away, it’s not too late to become a member – or even join the staff! There are rumors of especially good Con Suite and Staff Den provisioning; possibly even bacon chocolate chip cookies. Look for Wetlander – she’d really like to meet you there.
Oh boy, I’ll jump in on this one. As much as I loved this chapter, the cypher left me confused. I don’t have the book around to read it again, but I remember reading it several times and just not understanding…any chance someone could offer me a simple explanation?
Pattern knows more than Syl because Shallan has progressed farther in the “oaths”. She is currentl 3 to Kaladin’s 2 (and ends the book with 4 to his 3). As Kaladin progresses, Syl gets smarter.
Alice, I took Shallan’s reference to the oddity to mean the following. During their conversations Tyn told Shallan about he life as a con woman. Due to the nature of the gig, Tyn was always moving from place to place (be it because a con was successful and she had to leave or the con failed and she had to leave). Tyn told Shallan she did not have many possessions that she deemed irreplaceable. When Tyn began talking about the Ghostblooods, on the other hand, she talked differently. The Ghostbloods were an organization. It was not just Tyn acting for her own interests. She was beholden to those above her in the organization. Likewise, (IMO) Tyn was told either explicitly or implicitly that if she were a member of the Ghostbloods (rather than just a some-time contractor), she may be able to advance within the organization.
Who knows, maybe I looked at Shallan’s “oddity” comment just on the surface. Perhaps you are correct and Shallan had a deeper meaning.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Walker @2. While you are (probably) correct that Shallan has “progressed farther” vis-a-vis her Surgebinding abilities (and thus Pattern knows more than Syl), it is not because Shallan has spoken more oaths. Unlike all of the other Orders, Lightweavers only speak the first Oath. (See the scene at the end of WoR where Pattern requires that Shallan remember her how her mother died.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
AndrewHB @@@@@ 4 For the oaths light-weavers speak, your correct on the fact that it is the truths and deep introspection that progress im fairly sure we have seen the truths that she has spoken, One truth was the fact she killed her Father, The other how her mother died, And we have the first oath. So that is at least three “oaths” spoken. Anyone know what the other truth was that allowed her to progress ?
ZAD-man @1
I’m confused about the cypher also, and that’s after re-reading the passage 2 or 3 times last night. Well, I can accept that it existed and was necessary, I suppose.
Alice
If you haven’t found WoB on the subject of surgebindings granted by spren to the KsR, then it probably doesn’t exist. I’m not aware of any. Maybe there’s a reason the 10 combinations are the only ones possible and it will be revealed later. Nice job this week. Thanks! I don’t have much to say (yet).
Here’s the code described:
So, for example, say that ABCDE was one of the quintets. Then, the opening message could be something like “An Excellent Day to you…” and the reply would have to be something like, “Brave Chanarach’s greetings to you…”
There would be several possible quintets, and for each quintet there would be 10 possible choices of trios (60 if you count the six possible orders for each trio). Tyn would then respond with the correct pair of letters (presumably it would be set up so that no trio could be answered in more than one way).
ZAD-Man @1 – After trying to understand the cypher a bit, I came to the conclusion that it would probably make a lot more sense if we were looking at the script, but that it would be terribly artificial to try to give us the English version. I think it works like this: if you break the first words, coming from the sender, into sets of five, you will find that the first three words begin with the first three letters of one of those sets. The reply, then, must begin its first two words with the last two letters of that same set. If I can pull it off, I’ll try to come up with an example. :)
@several re: Pattern’s greater knowledge – At the beginning of this book, Kaladin had already done some basic Surgebinding, and had been conversing with Syl for months. Pattern, on the other hand, was only (this time) brought into the physical realm in Chapter 3, and spent his first days bumbling about, running into things. (Like a renegade Roomba. Heh.) By now, 29 days later, Pattern knows more about what Shallan is doing than Syl knows about what Kaladin is doing.
We don’t really know exactly what Truths are required of a Lightweaver – we don’t know that each time we’ve seen her acknowledge a truth, it is necessarily a “level-up” for her. There’s too much we don’t know for me to simply assume that Shallan’s acknowledgement that she killed her father (which she hadn’t really hidden from anyway) was necessarily a level-up. And at this stage of the game, she still hasn’t acknowledged how her mother died, so we can’t necessarily claim that she’s spoken three truths. (Remember, what we call “flashbacks” aren’t memories the character is recalling at this point, but are glimpses given to the reader from that character’s past. She won’t actively remember and acknowledge that she killed her mother until the very end of the book.) I think it’s more likely (but only because I happen to think it’s more likely!) that the more Shallan actively accepts and works with Pattern, the more he is able to recall of what they had learned together before her mother died.
Syl, on the other hand, has never done any of it before, so there’s nothing for her to remember. Isn’t there someplace where Kaladin asks her why she didn’t tell him he could do that, and she says something like “I didn’t know until you did it, silly”?
So here’s a shot at what I’m thinking for the cypher. It doesn’t work on the correspondence in the book, because that would have been in Alethi, not English. Suppose the initiating message begins with
This would break into quintets as follows:
The first three words of the original message begin with the letters a, y, and h, so I look for a quintet beginning with those three letters, and I find “ayher” – so my response must begin with two words whose first letters are e and r:
Does that make sense? It’s a pain to do, but not terrible, and it’s not something that is obvious to a casual glance – or even a not-so-casual search. It would be easier to create if you can use the letters of the quintet in random order, but a little harder to locate the correct quintet. Either way works.
So Alice and I have the same basic idea for the cipher; her method has the advantage of embedding the cipher in the text of the message, but it puts a pretty heavy constraint on how the text is composed. Admittedly, this is certainly possible to overcome (as she demonstrated), and the sender would have more time to compose an appropriate message than the responder, but it strikes me as more likely they have a pre-set group of valid quintets. Then decoding a message would require interception of two separate pieces of information (the message plus the set of valid quintets; or a whole set of messages—as Shallan and Pattern have access to) instead of just having to intercept a single message.
bad_platypus @10 – The reason I believe the quintets MUST be embedded in each message is that Pattern was able to see the pattern, point it out to Shallan, and she was able to compose an appropriate response. If the valid quintets were preset, how would they have known how to reply? The only way that could work is if the quintets are merely the alphabet broken into straightforward groups of five. (Obviously, it would be fine for the correspondents; it would be the only way Pattern could spot it, though.) Embedding the quintets isn’t that hard to do – that one took me maybe ten minutes? – and with a little practice it would take far less. It’s not like the sentence matters, it just has to read as a reasonable opening.
What are you talking about, anyway, man?
(whata reyou talki ngabo utany wayma)
Maybe a map would help.
Cipher complete, both ways, in about a minute. :)
RE: the cypher
It’s making more sense now. Thanks y’all. Methinks the NSA (or similar) would greatly value Pattern’s services.
I believe there are five preset quintets: The women’s script is composed of five groups of similarly-shaped letters. The groups would seem to be as follows:
e a o u i
t d r th l
s z n sh h
p b m f v
k g y ch j
Could be. I’m just saying that unless the quintets are readily accessible to anyone with knowledge of the script, they have to be embedded – and if they are readily accessible, it’s not as secure a code. Pattern’s explanation could be interpreted either way, and it’s quite possible that Tyn & company aren’t quite as creative as I’m giving them credit for.
@@.-@
There is a reason I put “oaths” in quotes. At the end of the book, she has spoken 3 truths in addition to the initial oath, putting her at 4.
@5
The three “oaths” Shallan has spoken are (in addition to the first):
That she killed her father, that she killed her mother, and “I am afraid” (the truth that first opens her up to surge binding).
@7 @9 @13 : Stormfathers, you all are smart! I was mildly interested, but totally ignored trying to figure out the cypher. I was very pleased with @7, totally flummoxed by @9 (did she figure out Altethi, and where did she get the info to do so) never even seeing the mashed words. Then @13 came up with another option. This is why I love the Rereads so much – I love seeing clever minds work! Thanks bad_platapus, Wetlandernw, and Zizos!
@15 Walker
but again, she hasn’t acknowledged even to herself that she killed her mother by this point in the book.
Girl knows how to compartmentalize in a way I would greatly fear could lead to Dissociative Identity Disorder (especially given her power set) if she wasn’t also making strides to accept things thanks to Pattern’s encouragement.
The fact is she is further along at this point than any provable number of oaths, truths or whatever that we have seen her make by this point in the book can readily explain.
It makes far more sense if Pattern merely recovered faster for the same reason that Wyndyl knows more: the Spren of his Order are on board with his bonding a human and are somehow aiding him. (A fact Wyndyl explicitly acknowledged–albeit uselessly–to Lift).
I know there isn’t anything definitely stated about Ishar’s invovlement organizing the Knights from Sanderson outside of the books, but I felt the books were clear about it. It’s in the information we were given from books 1 & 2. From Dalinar’s vision with Nohadon we know there were issues with Surgebinder, from another we have direct confirmation that spren copied what Honor did with the Heralds( we later have Sylphrena herself stating “Spren figured out what He’d done, and we imitated it.”).
All things being based on a system with Sanderson’s magics it follows the spren could not go outside the bounds of the two surge pairings, especially if they copied another source. Surgebinders were a law unto themselves before, they needed direction and codes to become what we know as the Knights Radiant.
Walker @15 – Yeah, but I’m still not convinced that each of those listed are necessarily “level-up” truths for a Lightweaver. I get the impression that they are more concerned with the quality of self-awareness than they are with set numbers. JMO.
I still find it remarkable that Shallan was even more advanced with her surgebinding as a child than she is even at the very end of this book. The clear example being that she has yet to remember how to create illusions with sound which she could before. She has also completely ignored the Transformation surge since her failed attempt with Stick.
wcarter @17
Pattern is her therapist. XD
Just Sayin’
“Ash’s eyes” was used again in this chapter. I’m gonna take it as a reference to her beauty and/or her light violet eyes for now. Did we already do that?
mnmama @16
Don’t have to figure out Women’s Script, it has already been done. Click here. Edit: and I see Zizoz already posted that link.
freckledred @18 – Like I said, I understand the argument. I just don’t find it convincing based on the current evidence.
Pattern uses very sophisticated figurative language when reacting to Shallan’s Lightweaving: “But I like it. I like the … taste … of it. He seemed very pleased with himself at that comment.” This is referring back a conversation he’d just had with Shallan when she tried to explain eating preferences to him and just after she’d insulted him by saying he was as “intelligible as a Bavlander trying to quote ancient Vorlin poetry.” Is Shallan teaching Pattern to lie?
Speaking of Shallan’s Lightweaving, she did the drawing and Lightweaving as an experiment to bolster her confidence in interacting with the Tashikk agent’s spanreed after she realized the Ghostbloods were sophisticated enough to use an authentication code. She created the Lightweaving to *feel* skilled and powerful enough to infiltrate the group via the spanreed, not because she knew she was going to have to do it in person, *in 25 minutes!*
Can you imagine it? And she just calmly gets dressed and goes. Like it’s the only conceivable recourse. Wow. I love seeing Bluth’s hat again!
As to why she doesn’t just retouch the picture and see it reflected on her nose? There was the process of Lightweaving described – drawing the figure while sucking in Stormlight, when done completely ”with a flourish” breathing out Light, feeling the Light envelop her and twist about her, vision only of the glow of the Stormlight – that may not allow retouches. It’s possible that she’d have to draw a completely new figure and go through the process entirely. Or it may be that she will be able to do retouches as her expertise grows. In this case, I think she just didn’t have time to do anything except dress and leave.
Anyone wonder which other warcamp(s) has gates open all night? Why?
Words of Radiants: “caused organization to be thrust upon them; having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws.”
I didn’t read this quote as referring to Radiants but to the spren who had chosen to imitate what Honor had done. The power in the Nahel bond doesn’t come from the human participants, it comes from the spren (or spren/splinter). So any attempt to limit the power or scope of power of the Knights Radiant would have to be applied to the spren not the men, wouldn’t it?
Maybe this explains what happened in the Recreance: the spren tried to expand the power or scope of the Nahel bond, and Ishtar destroyed each and every spren involved. This sounds like something that Syl would try if she found Kaladin in extremity. It’s her pattern. Remember that by the time of the Recreance, the Heralds were no longer involved in protecting the planet from whatever the Voidbringers were. So they might have been pretty desperate trying to cope with a very versatile enemy. And it would explain why the KsR sundered from their Blades and Plate – maybe they thought if they sundered the bond with their spren, it would save them from Ishtar’s destruction?
Just a thought.
Good chapter analysis!
Surges: I assumed that the ten two-surge pairings were the only ones that could be created for some reason. Like how in Allomancy you can have all the powers, or one, but nothing in between. So in Surgebinding you can only have two Surges per bond, and it has to be two Surges that are “adjacent”.
As for why Shallan is more advanced than Kaladin, I suspect that it’s just a matter of epiphanies. Shallan, thanks to Jasnah’s coaching, has already had her major epiphany. Kaladin will have his later, and near-instantly master the Basic Lashing.
And by my count, Shallan has spoken one deep truth so far (she killed her father). I’m not sure if the fact that Pattern can become a Blade is a separate truth form the fact that she killed her mother, but I suspect not because that would keep Shallan and Kaladin on parity (each has spoken three Words).
It fits more with other Cosmere magic systems for the Surge pairings to be innate, but it would be interesting if they weren’t, and there’s definitely the potential there if the spren did it on their own.
Besides that, good chapter and good re-read.
It’s really fun to see Shallan making progress with her powers as she works on infiltrating the Ghostbloods, although she’s putting in a lot of work for a goal that is…pretty dangerous.
But journey before destination.
A thought occurs: it says something about Shallan both as a person and as an artist that it would be her nose of all things that wound up ‘fuzzy’ (although I’m not sure what that something is).
Noses are not easy to draw–though I doubt that was the problem given Shallan’s level of proficiency. Most people focus on the face–so when she was making a Lighweaving disguise that did not also include clothes one would assume it would have been her pseudo face she put the most detail into in her drawing.
That obviously wasn’t the case. Her hands were fine. Her, eyes, even the differences in height, body porportions and movements between “Veil” and Shallan weren’t off. Just her nose–the center of her face. This puzzles me.
What does that say about the way she looks at other people and the world?
Interesting chapter. My main comment relates to the apparent easiness with which proto-Radiants learn to master their surges. Here we have Shallan, whom up until a few days ago did not know how to absorb stormlight, managing to create a near perfect illusion on her first trial… We can argue here Shallan is only re-learning what she had mastered as a child, but still. It opens the question as to whether surgebinding present any challenges at all, I mean, if a child of 11 can be proficient with it…
I also like the parallel made with Kaladin here. Whereas it is true Kaladin has had more time to perfect his mastery, he still got around prettu fast. A few training sessions, in the chasms, were sufficient for him to master Gravitation up to a level where he could match Szeth, whom had several more years of practice behind him. Again, we could argue Szeth is only using a Honorblade and not a Nahel bond, hence the difference, but still.
I guess my mixed feelings on surgebinding is heavily tainted with WoT where we saw Rand painstackingly gather knowledge, weave by weave, all through 15 books. In comparison, surgebinding requires no teaching and a few trial and errors seem to be sufficient to garner great skill. I sure hope some surges will prove more difficult to learn such as Transformation, Transportation and Progression. For the later, I hope it is a tiny bit like surgery, where one has to envision how the organs are supposed to be in order to regrow them as oppose to simply blowing to someone’s face in order to magically heal him. The Lift chapter was deceiving in this matter.
Wetlander, bad_platypus, and Zizoz. Those are interesting speculations about the alleged code used in the Ghostblood spanreed transmissions. Unfortunately, it doesn’t appear to pertain to the actual message to Shallan in this chapter and her response. Wet has noted this and speculated that the code works only in Alethi – not the supplied English translation. In that case, there is no reason to assume that there is actually a code as opposed to a mere claim to a code. Perhaps Wet understands Sanderson better and believes that he would not fake a code, but actually develop one – even if not apparent to the reader. In any case, her presumed Sanderson code works well enough for me.
STBLST @28 – Heh. Well, I’m pretty confident that he would at least work it out to the extent that he knows the code would be plausible, whether he actually uses it or not. So he may not have had a particular set of quintets in mind. The inconsistency, if there is one, is that when you look at Navani’s notebooks, they aren’t translations – they are English text in the Vorin women’s script. So… either none of us have found the key for the quintets, or he fell back on “it’s a translation” anyway.
FWIW, I can’t quite see using the quintets Zizoz listed @13, if only because all the vowels are in a single group. I’d suggest that if one were using the letter structures to define the quintets, it would make more sense to go “vertically” through the list, so:
e t s p k
a d z b g
o r n m y
u th sh f ch
i l h v j
It would definitely make the pattern easier to see, though I’m not sure that’s a good thing. (ETA: Which is more obvious: a sentence whose first three words start with three different vowels, a sentence whose first three words start with variations of a single letterform, or a sentence whose first three words start with e.g. the simplest & largest version of three of the five letterforms? Give me a few minutes, and I’ll upload a visual for those who don’t want to keep switching over to the Coppermind.)
Gepeto’s comments @27 made me think of something. There are many, many things that children learn more quickly than adults, because they just dive in and do things by trial, error, and instinct. (Compare the time it takes a 7-year-old to figure out an iPad for the first time, versus a 45-year-old. Not a personal example, or anything…) So it’s quite possible that little Shallan simply learned by instinct and just-try-it – a skill which most of us crusty old adults can barely remember doing – and made a great deal of progress in something to which she was naturally apt anyway. Even now, when she makes a breakthrough, it’s mostly when she forgets herself and just goes on instinct. I’m wondering if perhaps when she stops thinking, her instinct can more readily access the skills she had already learned long ago, and what holds her back from incorporating (for example) sound into her Illusions is that she’s thinking about it too hard.
Kaladin’s Windrunning reminds me more of learning to ride a bike. Once he caught that glimpse of a mental realm where he could choose which way was down and just did it, he had the feel of it. He does practice quite a bit more in a future chapter or two, prior to facing Szeth, but once he figured out how to “balance” as it were, it’s just a matter of making the mental adjustments.
Can’t remember, has my question below been answered:
Are Syl & Pattern new born sprens?
So they were not around when the Radiants broke their bonds?
Or are they old sprens who were not bonded to a Radiant when the others died?
@30, I don’t know the exact references, but Pattern at least was not sentient at the time of the Recreance. For Syl, I think that that she was around. She said that she had helped men kill before. I’m not 100% sure, but I don’t think Kaladin was the first person she bonded with.
@Gepeto
I understand what you’re saying, but I actually think that might be deliberate. I’ve noticed that the spren seem to bestow more than just powers on their human partner. It’s implied that Kaladin’s skills with the spear come at least in part from his bond with Syl, for example. I think that, especially as the bond strengthens, the human gets a portion of the spren’s intuitive knowledge of how the Surges work. There’s also a lot of precedent in Sanderson’s works for gaining knowledge of magic through connection with a Shard (Vin learns Allomancy unnaturally fast due to being Preservation’s chosen, Holding lots of Breath helps you guess Commands, etc.) Since the spren are fragments of Shards, it’s only natural that they would bestow some knowledge of Surgebinding on their humans.
Part of what drives the relative ease which with people can learn their Surges IMO is Stormlight itself – both the push to do something while Stormlight is being held, as well as the general way it increases physical capacity, probably help with making the important jumps in thought and application. Plus, at least with both Kaladin and Shallan, it seems like they both definitely have instincts for their Surges, possibly from when they were kids – Shallan obviously has her repressed memories, but even Kaladin notes at the end against Szeth that he just needs to be, that it feels natural. The real problem is whether or not this applies to every proto-Radiant: are Kaladin and Shallan just innately talented with their Surges, or is this just another product of the Nahel bond, another way that the human partners are nudged into having greater capacity for what their powers will entail.
@27 Gepeto
I’m going to have to disagree with you on the SA to WoT ease of learning comparison.
I do agree that Kaladin and Shallan are learning fast, but if anything Rand and the super-girls learned not just the One Power but everything at an impossibly fast pace (unless you include the clever in-story han wave of Ta’veren and the Pattern).
For Kaladin, there are only three lashings: Basic, Reverse, and Full. That’s it.
On the other hand, how many umpty-million weaves and variations on weaves are there? How complex is each one? How many ‘almost-weaves’ are there that will literally blow up in your face or worse if you’re just messing around?
Sure Rand and the super girls learned stuff through 15 books and more than two real life decades, but in-story the time it took Rand to go from “Nobody” to “Nightmare” to “Jedi Master Jesus” was less than three years, and that was with a magic system that is far, far more complex and versatile than Surge-binding and with much worse consequences than a few bumps and a bruised ego if he screwed up in his practice.
Oh and Rand somehow became a blade master in his downtime. That alone should have taken 4-5 years of rather intense personal training.
Addendum: I admit that I am slightly overstating my case, however, I’ve always had the opposite opinion on how prodigiously fast the WoT protagonists learned (especially compared to their peers in-world).
@29: I like the comment you make about children and intuitive learning. It does make sense little Shallan would have grasp those concept easily while adult Shallan struggles. However, just as other posters suggested, it must be Shallan has an innate affinity with the surge of Illumination, much like Kaladin as an innate affinity with both his surges.
It should be noted Shallan is rather poor at using Transformation. Jasnah in comparison has been surgebinding for 6 years and seems rather limited… she seems hardly able to use Transportation efficiently, a fact I recall Brandon confirmed through a WoB. Please correct my failing memories when I refer to a WoB stating Jasnah was not good with the surge of Transportation.
So why are Kaladin and Shallan, by comparison, such more more proficient?
@32: For the longest time, I have thought Kaladin’s skill with the spear was more Nahel bound than natural talent. However, when Brandon confirmed the Windrunners special gift was not fighting prowess but squire strength, I was forced to revise this impression. It thus seem Kaladin skill is all his and considering he became a walking legend after only four years of training highlights how talented he much have been. Adolin, by comparison, has been training steadily since he was a small child to reach his current level.
I agree there seem to be a strong affinity between Kaladin/Shallan and their surges. It makes me wonder if they are special cases or the norm? I can’t wait to read how Renarin deals with his…. Somehow, I have got the feeling he is doing poorly, but I hope he isn’t. It’d be nice if the kid was actually good at something, for once.
@34: Perhaps my example was badly chosen. It is true the super girls learned much faster than the average Aes Sedai, but I still did not get the feeling is was as quick as Kaladin/Shallan. I guess I expected it would be harder for our characters to figure it out. It may just be an impression largely fueled by Kaladin defeating Szeth and Shallan mastering the Ghostblood. Next book may bring more balance. I’d love to see a Radiant struggle with his surges (but not Renarin).
I don’t have the book in front of me, but I remember that all the orders had to understand and recite the first ideal to unlock their special skill upgrades, but the power boosts afterward were different depending on the order the surge binder belonged to. Windrunners were the strictest about the Words while Lightweavers got their power boosts from rites of self-actualization. At the end of this book all the revealed and living surgebinders had spoken the first ideal and started their progression (except maybe Jasnah; we don’t yet know how far she has gotten, although we can infer that she’d at least gotten past the first due to her skill with soulcasting). From what we’ve seen , Kal is obviously at Level 3/5 and Shallan upgraded to Level 3/5 after Pattern broke her mind block.
What I’d like to know is when a new ideal is spoken and a surgebinder levels up, does that leveling occur across both surges or do they take turns ? With Lyft, she couldn’t acess Regrowth until she passed Level 2/5 yet Kal seems to have equal access to both his Surges from the start and they grow at the same rate as he progresses. Is the rate and shape of the prprogression unique to the individual or is it set according to the rules of Roshar? And does practice have any effect, positive or negative, on the mastery of a Surge? Jas and Shallon seem to be good at the surge they use the most but not so good with the one they share , namely Transportation. Will Shadesmar be easier for Shallan to navigate and manipulate now that she has leveled up?
Shallan is 4/5 in terms of level. She is nearly complete. Jasnah must have progressed to at least 3/5… She has had 6 years to do so. Her progression seems unbelievably slow if you compare it to Kaladin and Shallan.
Correction on Lift: she could use Progression before she said her second oath, she just did not have enough power to revive Gaxw. It could be she would have managed to heal minor wounds, but she refrained for practicing, a fact Wyndle was quick to point out. There is also the thought we, the readers, are assuming she said the 2nd oath, but we do not have any text indications (unless I missed it) confirming it indeed was the 2nd oath… It seems logical it was, so I am rather confident about it, but what if she said the 3rd oath? We do not know… As for her use of Regrowth, the word regrowth triggers all kind of thoughts in my head. Considering it is used to make plants grow faster and it enables quick healing, it seems logical to think its purpose would be to accelerate the molecular movement such as to speed up the process of growth or healing. However, plants needs resources to grow, the human body as well, so how does the surge compensate for the required water/nutriment/energy organic matter needs to develop itself? Does regrowth have a lasting effect on the healed person, things such as great tiredness or deep hunger? And does regrowth removes all need for surgery? If someone has an open fracture, do you need to replace the bone before you can regrow it?
So much questions… I have always like healing powers. I am rather keen on reading about this one.
This is the first time I remember him not being attachted to something. Is this relevant (some sort of progress of his powers as well?) or is it just more convenient for him to hide his pattern/mass on textures because he can’t make himself “unseen” to others. Why then didn’t he float when he was the dumb spren bumbing into Shallan’s furniture?
Re the pattern in Tyn’s conversations: I’m with mnmama @16 about being sure but still baffled by the prowess of some of our fellow reReaders.
And I also agree with the belief that the 10 sets of 2-surge pairs are a given in this magic system and not imposed by Ishar. I even think that the spren had some “requisition” of their own, but IMO he somehow imposed that there need to be KR Orders. I’m not sure though he could force the spren though.
Re the learning speed of our protoR: I thougt it was well done, especially with Kaladin. He first uses his powers unconsciously / instinctively in battle-mode and then spends frustrating hours trying to drain spheres and do it intentionally. Yes he learns fast but it has to “make click” first. He isn’t an instant genious.
with the “new” power once he “gets” what he has to do, he doens’t have problems focusing the power, but how his body reacts to the “unnatural” (I know Syl would disagree to that word) feeling. But he is a trained fighter with an athletic body, this must help with learning this a new set of skills.
mnmama @23
Fair enough, let’s look at the other side of the coin. I don’t buy that spren can be destroyed, per se, but perhaps Ishar, being Chief Bondsmith, could sever the Nahel bond. Food for thought.
Re: Surge pairings
I suspect there are indeed rules that we don’t know yet.
I love that we don’t have much knowledge of the magic system on Roshar. In Elantris, Mistborn, and Warbreaker, it was fairly general knowledge how the systems worked. BWS has done a good job taking us along for the ride as the whole of Roshar becomes reacquainted with surgebinding.
I agree that the text in the Stormlight Archive itself still leaves much about how the magic works in question.
But thinking about the endsheet and “our” work deciphering it, I don’t hope that the surges “suddenly” will be combined randomly, thus changing so drastically what we think we know.
But yes, in SA he still could to it. It’s not as fixed as it was in Mistborn.
I still feel frustrated that he did change the rules for the magic in Mistborn:
(stop reading here, if your not interested in a spoilerific Mistborn rant)
In the initial trilogy Atium/Malatium were part of the 16 alomantic matals, but then they were taken out of the circle to be “god metals” and 2 new metals were added to complete the 16. I wouldn’t have had a problem with the graphic changing. I very much liked, how Brandon expanded the knowlege about the metals going from half-circle graphic with 8 basic metals in book 1 to 3/4 circle in book 2 to full circle in book 3. I would easily accept that the people just guessed the metals wrong, except that it’s a huge plot point in book 3 that there are 16 metals with 1/16 of the “magically-able” population for each metal and there are 1/16 atium mistings, clearly making this metal one of the 16.
BTW is there a special thread to report to tor about the new design?
The page is loading / behaving strangely after I post a comment, either not showing any comments anymore or not loading correctly at all… (it works again if I delete the additional “/comment…” in webpage-adress)
(self-flagged for attention).
Edit to add: this time it worked all right, maybe because I didn’t preview first, which I normally do?
@@@@@ travyl
there is a thread for that: http://www.tor.com/2015/05/21/redesign-bug-fix-update/ quite a few people, including myself and various other re-readers, have posted on it when we find new or worsening glitches.
Evil Monkey @36 – Correction: the Surge Jasnah and Shallan share is Transformation. Transportation is shared between Elsecallers and Willshapers.
travyl @41 – I don’t actually think that the Surges will suddenly be combined differently; I just think it’s entirely possible that they once were combined differently, and the spren won’t do that any longer. I also wonder how the spren which bond with the Listeners work; they don’t seem to grant the same combined skillsets of two Surges that the humans get, but they definitely give enhancements (and limitations) of one sort or another. So… I suspect there are ways in which the spren interaction with people (of several races) will be developed as the story progresses in ways we haven’t seen yet.
Late-night and travel-befuddled musing: what kind of spren do the Listeners bond with to get the various forms? Would lifespren give mateform, with its ability to reproduce but difficulty focusing on tasks? Or would that be passionspren? Would flamespren, with their dancing forms, give nimbleform its dexterity? Would gravityspren give the warforms the ability to leap the chasms as they do?
There’s just so much about the spren and the various races of humanoids that we don’t know yet…
@44
Well it was Anger spren that made storm form wasn’t it?
So maybe…humans bond with sentient spren and Listeners bond with spren based on emotional ranges?
If that’s the case, Creation Spren make art form (which would explain why they are having such at hard time getting it due to the catch 22 of needing one to appear from their various attempts at art in other forms), Passion Spren would make mate form, etc.?
I like this theory about the emotion spren. But I think we would need to further specify what type of spren bond with humans, because they don’t become sentient until after they bond. Perhaps “ideal spren” or something like that?
Also in regards to the speed with which our protagonists learn their surges, I was wondering if perhaps it is natural for a proto-Radiant to be more gifted in one of their two surges? I suppose that doesn’t really follow for Kaladin (or it might; I haven’t bothered to try to understand the science behind Adhesion and Gravitation and how they relate to the lashings)
I was also thinking, the fact that Jasnah seems to have taken a lot longer to develop her skills (which we may find out is not the case as we get more insight into her backstory) is a strong point in favor of the theory that instinct and a child-like nature are key to learning more quickly. If anyone would overthink things, it would be Jasnah. Plus, she was already in her late twenties, early thirties by the time she started exhibiting powers, way past the flexible-learning-child-brain years.
Teleportation, illusion, and not encryption an decryption… Lightweavers really DO form support staff. As Shallan shows, thier the superspies to Kaladin’s supersoldiers, the Blackwidows to the Captain Alethkars.. or something like that.
Huh, with that kind of pattern recognition skill, NO CODE is safe from the Lightweavers… which makes one wonder, with all those advantages, why is it that the BEST Radiants can do against Desolations is Pyrrhic victories?
@38 travyl: re Pattern lifting off to become a sphere – I thought it was unusual and new for Pattern, too, but it turns out it’s not. I went back and did a search and Pattern lifted off the first time on the boat. I thought about trying to correlate when he lifts off with what was happening, to see if there was anything that could add, but I got sidetracked.
I made lemonade and cookies for the Storm Cellar.
@41 (the Mistborn Spoilers post):
I saw a WoB where someone asked him about this “discrepancy” of whether atium was one of the 16 metals or not. He said that the 1/16-Mistings proportions were something that Preservation was in control of, and Preservation was working with what people knew at the time. So Preservation was basically pretending atium was one of the 16, when in fact it never was.
Could still be a retcon, but considering how much other Cosmere stuff Brandon plans years in advance, I kinda don’t think so.
On the other hand … it does seem odd that Preservation has any power over atium and its interactions with humankind. Hmmm.
Maybe learning surges has less to do with the point of development at the time one begins to exhibit powers and more to do with natural aptitude and familiarity. For Shallan, the illusion surge augments her talent for artistry while Lyft’s friction surge makes her talents for sneaking and escape almost otherworldly. Kal’s surges boosts the abilities of an already talented fighter. As for Jasnah, unique to all the Surgebinders we’ve seen “on screen” so far, she alone is the only one for whom Soulcasting wasn’t a mystery before gaining her powers due to her mother’s involvement in the scientific community.
Forgive me if one of the 50 previous comments mentioned the surge WoB, but here’s one that might interest you:
——
KHYRINDOR
Do the Honourblades reflect the natural pairing of Surges, or did Honor decide which Surge pair to put in each Blade?
BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)
The pairs are natural to Roshar in the same way as the metals on Scadrial.
——
So while this doesn’t completely rule out “Stormborn” or the like, it does suggest that these particular pairings aren’t an artificial imposition.
Kurkistan @51 – No, that’s not been mentioned. In fact, that’s exactly what I wanted someone to point out, if it existed, because I had not seen any WoB on the subject at all. So the pairings are natural, at least. The Listener bonds don’t seem to involve pairings at all; I wonder what that says. Could humans do single-spren (or would that be single-Surge? single-something, anyway) bonds, or is that unique to the Listener mental/physical/spiritual construction?
And would it be possible to force an unnatural pairing? Inquiring minds…
@51 Forced pairings should be possible. It depends on how Hemalurgy works on Roshar. I imagine that if we see that, it will be on the back five.
Oooooo…What would happen if you used Hemalurgy on a stormform and put the power in a human???
^^
I’ll bet we are going to see something like that eventually.
Hey, I just had a weird thought – mostly in response to Bellaberry’s comment on chapter 42. What if those things in Mraize’s collection really are hemalurgic spikes which have lost their charge, but will get used on someone(s) from Roshar?
::shudder::
This is…very assumptive. As Alice has said multiple times – there are simply too many things we don’t yet know to be able to make such statements with this much…assertiveness.
Just make a list of things we don’t know:
1. The fundamental workings of the Cryptic Nahel bond. We know that the Honor bond with kaladin is very clearly defined: 5 oaths spoken, 5 level-ups. But as far as I’m aware we’ve never heard any such statement explicitly stating this as factual for every bond. Consider the nature of what we’ve seen so far: Shallan has become more powerful as she’s admitted truths she’s rather pretend are not. Is it even possible for every Lightweaver who’s ever bonded a Cryptic to have exactly five – and ONLY five of those type of truths? That seems…ludicrous. IMO, it feels more likely that for Lightweavers, it’s more of a sliding scale – as they attain more accurate self-awareness, they gain access to more potent abilities. When one achieves perfect – or at least near-perfect self awareness, they will achieve their greatest level of attunement with their Spren, and will therefore gain access to their full powers.
2. Shallan has already progressed through much of the bonding process. She certainly slid backwards after the trauma of killing her mother, but how, exactly, did an eleven-year-old girl have three(ish) “truths” of such raw power to advance her bond PRIOR to her mother’s death? For she had certainly progressed far enough to allow Pattern to become a shardblade for her! Or is it possible, instead, that Lightweaver bonds don’t require 3 “oaths” in order for a Cryptic to go full on shard-mode? Again, we’re working with too little information here to draw firm conclusions.
3. We know that Shallan had progressed to some point along the Lighweaver power-meter prior to her mother’s death (I have a hard time defining what occurred as a murder – it was in self-defense). We know that she probably back-slid to a lower point, as evidenced by Pattern’s loss of cognition and her decreased lightweaving abillity. But we don’t know to what point she dropped. On Did she drop to the equivalent of a 0 on the Windrunner scale? Or a 1? A 1.7, perhaps? And how, exactly, does the altered starting point affect what she has to do to regain her previous advancement, let alone surpass it?
I understand the desire to outline and define precise steps for Shallan here – especially in light of how things have worked for Kaladin. But everything we’ve read – from Shallan’s history to the obvious differences in the political workings of the different varieties of Spren – seem to me to make it clear that the process is NOT the same for everyone, and it would be foolish to make assumptions on one Knight’s Progress based on how another order – and one on the completely opposite side of the spectrum – works. It’s natural to want to define and order things. Just don’t be disappointed if your most fervently held assumptions prove false in the end.